Comments on: Raising Children in a Consensual Environment Part I: Moving Away From Punishments http://www.fairfieldvoice.com/2009/07/03/raising-children-in-a-consensual-environment-part-1-of-3/ A community blog for the city of Fairfield, Iowa Wed, 28 Jul 2010 23:43:30 -0500 hourly 1 By: Jen Green http://www.fairfieldvoice.com/2009/07/03/raising-children-in-a-consensual-environment-part-1-of-3/comment-page-1/#comment-607 Jen Green Sat, 04 Jul 2009 15:08:35 +0000 http://fairfieldvoice.com/?p=1521#comment-607 Thanks! I think it's important to take things a day at a time! (Or sometimes an hour at a time!) This is the environment we STRIVE for. Which doesn't mean it's always what we get! There are certainly occasions where my head nearly explodes from the fighting and conflict! Or that I don't sometimes turn into a yelling, crazy-mommy who just wants everyone to go to bed RIGHT NOW!! But, we take it day-by-day, and the longer we do this, and the more practice we have, the more it becomes "instinctual." Thanks! I think it's important to take things a day at a time! (Or sometimes an hour at a time!) This is the environment we STRIVE for. Which doesn't mean it's always what we get! There are certainly occasions where my head nearly explodes from the fighting and conflict! Or that I don't sometimes turn into a yelling, crazy-mommy who just wants everyone to go to bed RIGHT NOW!! But, we take it day-by-day, and the longer we do this, and the more practice we have, the more it becomes "instinctual."

]]> By: Jen Green http://www.fairfieldvoice.com/2009/07/03/raising-children-in-a-consensual-environment-part-1-of-3/comment-page-1/#comment-606 Jen Green Sat, 04 Jul 2009 14:55:56 +0000 http://fairfieldvoice.com/?p=1521#comment-606 I also wanted to address what you said about your parents having an environment that balanced consequence with reward. I have to say, we try to avoid rewards as much as we try to avoid punishments. I see both as being a way to manipulate or coerce a child into behaving the way I want them to, rather than helping them learn how to appropriately behave. For example, in our family, everyone pitches in to help clean up. Not because they fear punishment for not helping, or expect the allure of a reward, but because we’ve tried to stress that in a family, we all participate in the things it takes to keep a family running. If I want the house cleaned, and my six year old doesn’t want to help, I certainly wouldn’t punish him for not helping. But I also wouldn’t try to bribe him with a reward to get him to help either. And for the most part, he’s generally willing to help out, or at least let me know that when he’s done with whatever he’s doing instead, he’d be willing to help. He loves to vacuum; my two year old loves to put her toys in their containers, etc. And I think that most of that comes from the fact that cleaning is something that we have modeled as being something that makes our house more enjoyable to live in, and easier to function in. They don’t dread cleaning because they don’t view it as something that they will be punished for not doing, and they also don’t expect a reward for helping out. Alfie Kohn has a great book, "Punished by Rewards" if you want more info. He's also got some great essays on his website <a href="http://www.alfiekohn.org" target="_blank">www.alfiekohn.org</a> I also wanted to address what you said about your parents having an environment that balanced consequence with reward. I have to say, we try to avoid rewards as much as we try to avoid punishments. I see both as being a way to manipulate or coerce a child into behaving the way I want them to, rather than helping them learn how to appropriately behave. For example, in our family, everyone pitches in to help clean up. Not because they fear punishment for not helping, or expect the allure of a reward, but because we’ve tried to stress that in a family, we all participate in the things it takes to keep a family running. If I want the house cleaned, and my six year old doesn’t want to help, I certainly wouldn’t punish him for not helping. But I also wouldn’t try to bribe him with a reward to get him to help either. And for the most part, he’s generally willing to help out, or at least let me know that when he’s done with whatever he’s doing instead, he’d be willing to help. He loves to vacuum; my two year old loves to put her toys in their containers, etc. And I think that most of that comes from the fact that cleaning is something that we have modeled as being something that makes our house more enjoyable to live in, and easier to function in. They don’t dread cleaning because they don’t view it as something that they will be punished for not doing, and they also don’t expect a reward for helping out.

Alfie Kohn has a great book, "Punished by Rewards" if you want more info. He's also got some great essays on his website http://www.alfiekohn.org

]]> By: Jen Green http://www.fairfieldvoice.com/2009/07/03/raising-children-in-a-consensual-environment-part-1-of-3/comment-page-1/#comment-605 Jen Green Sat, 04 Jul 2009 14:42:19 +0000 http://fairfieldvoice.com/?p=1521#comment-605 Alright, you address a lot of issues here, so let me try and break this down a little. Let me start with the examples you gave, and see if I can give you a better idea of my perspective. First you mentioned kicking another child out of anger. I actually dealt with something sort of similar tonight! Connor was up late last night, and then up WAY too early this morning, and he's been in a pretty foul mood all day. He and Autumn (who is two) were playing in the playroom tonight, and he got mad at her about something, and pinched her cheek. His immediate response after she came and told me what he had done was, "Sorry! I'm sorry!" Sense this was the second time it had happened today, we had a discussion about how, while it is nice to SAY that you're sorry, it's important to SHOW the other person you're sorry by not pinching them in the face again, and by making an effort to play more gently. He said he understood, told Autumn that he was having a bad night, but he would work hard not to pinch her again, hugged her, and they went off and played fine. So, that's how I would handle aggressive boundary crossing. No spanking, no timeout, no sent to his room, etc. NOW....let's not overlook the fact that there is a difference between PUNISHMENTS and CONSEQUENCES. If Autumn had decided not to play with Connor anymore because he was aggressive with her....well, that's the consequence for being mean to his friend…now, his friend doesn’t want to play with him. Life imposes enough natural consequences for our actions; I don’t see how a parental-imposed punishment would have been needed. As far as your example about the pet…I’m a firm believer that it’s important not to bring a pet into the house until the children are mature enough to deal with the pet in a gentle, humane way. Two year olds and puppies don’t seem to be a good mix! I also think the children need MAJOR supervision when interacting with the pet. If my child doesn’t have enough impulse control to avoid dropping, kicking, etc. the dog, then I consider that MY fault for bringing a dog into the family before the child was prepared to deal with it. I think it’s largely dependant on how old the child in question is. Two? Then separating them from the pet, supervising more closely, and reminders to be gentle with the puppy are about as much as one can expect. If the child is six? Again, more supervision, and lots of discussions about how to gently handle the puppy, what could happen if the dog was mishandled (biting, injury, etc.), we’d have a discussion about why it’s important that the dog be able to trust us as his owners, and maybe see about enrolling them into a “puppy obedience” type of class so they could get a better idea of how to deal with the puppy in an effective way. Again…no punishments. I think it’s important to remember that not punishing the child doesn’t mean that the child lives in an environment where they’re allowed to do as they please to whomever they please, whenever they please. I just view it as my job to help the child learn how to appropriately respond to situations, rather than punishing them for not. Alright, you address a lot of issues here, so let me try and break this down a little.
Let me start with the examples you gave, and see if I can give you a better idea of my perspective. First you mentioned kicking another child out of anger. I actually dealt with something sort of similar tonight! Connor was up late last night, and then up WAY too early this morning, and he's been in a pretty foul mood all day. He and Autumn (who is two) were playing in the playroom tonight, and he got mad at her about something, and pinched her cheek. His immediate response after she came and told me what he had done was, "Sorry! I'm sorry!" Sense this was the second time it had happened today, we had a discussion about how, while it is nice to SAY that you're sorry, it's important to SHOW the other person you're sorry by not pinching them in the face again, and by making an effort to play more gently. He said he understood, told Autumn that he was having a bad night, but he would work hard not to pinch her again, hugged her, and they went off and played fine. So, that's how I would handle aggressive boundary crossing. No spanking, no timeout, no sent to his room, etc. NOW….let's not overlook the fact that there is a difference between PUNISHMENTS and CONSEQUENCES. If Autumn had decided not to play with Connor anymore because he was aggressive with her….well, that's the consequence for being mean to his friend…now, his friend doesn’t want to play with him. Life imposes enough natural consequences for our actions; I don’t see how a parental-imposed punishment would have been needed.

As far as your example about the pet…I’m a firm believer that it’s important not to bring a pet into the house until the children are mature enough to deal with the pet in a gentle, humane way. Two year olds and puppies don’t seem to be a good mix! I also think the children need MAJOR supervision when interacting with the pet. If my child doesn’t have enough impulse control to avoid dropping, kicking, etc. the dog, then I consider that MY fault for bringing a dog into the family before the child was prepared to deal with it. I think it’s largely dependant on how old the child in question is. Two? Then separating them from the pet, supervising more closely, and reminders to be gentle with the puppy are about as much as one can expect. If the child is six? Again, more supervision, and lots of discussions about how to gently handle the puppy, what could happen if the dog was mishandled (biting, injury, etc.), we’d have a discussion about why it’s important that the dog be able to trust us as his owners, and maybe see about enrolling them into a “puppy obedience” type of class so they could get a better idea of how to deal with the puppy in an effective way. Again…no punishments.

I think it’s important to remember that not punishing the child doesn’t mean that the child lives in an environment where they’re allowed to do as they please to whomever they please, whenever they please. I just view it as my job to help the child learn how to appropriately respond to situations, rather than punishing them for not.

]]> By: Will Merydith http://www.fairfieldvoice.com/2009/07/03/raising-children-in-a-consensual-environment-part-1-of-3/comment-page-1/#comment-592 Will Merydith Sat, 04 Jul 2009 05:21:28 +0000 http://fairfieldvoice.com/?p=1521#comment-592 "Is raising children so contrary to nature that you need to follow set rules and guidelines?" I don't understand your meaning. Growing food is not contrary to nature, but you need to follow a set of rules and guidelines to make sure you get a high enough yield to not starve. Right? "Is raising children so contrary to nature that you need to follow set rules and guidelines?" I don't understand your meaning. Growing food is not contrary to nature, but you need to follow a set of rules and guidelines to make sure you get a high enough yield to not starve. Right?

]]> By: Ron Khare http://www.fairfieldvoice.com/2009/07/03/raising-children-in-a-consensual-environment-part-1-of-3/comment-page-1/#comment-589 Ron Khare Sat, 04 Jul 2009 04:08:01 +0000 http://fairfieldvoice.com/?p=1521#comment-589 As a Taoist, I'm never really for defined structures and philosophies. Is raising children so contrary to nature that you need to follow set rules and guidelines? Can't it be a more organic process, with every action being the natural result of other actions? It seems like these philosophies are more to keep you from doing the things your parents did. By that I mean, the problem lies with patterns picked up from watching your own parents - things you see as wrong. It has almost nothing to do with the children themselves, it's about how you feel and see yourself as a parent. On the other hand, I'm always a fan of deeply analyzing things. Giving respect when it is due makes vastly more sense than the more typical child/parent power struggle you tend to see in the media. As a Taoist, I'm never really for defined structures and philosophies. Is raising children so contrary to nature that you need to follow set rules and guidelines? Can't it be a more organic process, with every action being the natural result of other actions?

It seems like these philosophies are more to keep you from doing the things your parents did. By that I mean, the problem lies with patterns picked up from watching your own parents – things you see as wrong. It has almost nothing to do with the children themselves, it's about how you feel and see yourself as a parent.

On the other hand, I'm always a fan of deeply analyzing things. Giving respect when it is due makes vastly more sense than the more typical child/parent power struggle you tend to see in the media.

]]> By: Will Merydith http://www.fairfieldvoice.com/2009/07/03/raising-children-in-a-consensual-environment-part-1-of-3/comment-page-1/#comment-586 Will Merydith Fri, 03 Jul 2009 22:30:19 +0000 http://fairfieldvoice.com/?p=1521#comment-586 Anyone that spends time with children will encounter a moment when they realize - hey, I under-estimated this little kid, she/he's smarter than I thought. It's important to recognize that children are more capable than they get credit for, but they are not small adults. That, taken literally, is incorrect (and I don't think you mean it literally since you recognize they need guidance/parenting). You're right about what they teach. I've learned more about myself from my daughter than I have in the 35 years before my daughter. That's been one of the gifts of having a child - they are more valuable than any self help book on the market ;) Regarding "Moving Away From Punishments", I'm not convinced this is a one size fits all way of parenting. One of the things my parents did right was balance reward and punishment in a manner that I believe built my ability to recognize and learn from mistakes, and build character upon failure and success. There's a difference between "My house my rules" and "structure". I feel like your argument for removing punishments altogether is fixed, first because it's compared to the other extreme ("My house my rules"). And second because the example is throwing a toy, which honestly isn't a great example of an action that tests the boundaries of discipline scenarios. There's a middle ground where you respect your child and build structure that can include techniques of discipline appropriate for your child, without having to control them. So how about an example that really pushes the boundaries - like kicking another child in the groin (anger) or mishandling a pet by dropping, squeezing or closing it in a box (lack of understanding or knowledge of consequences)? Anyone that spends time with children will encounter a moment when they realize – hey, I under-estimated this little kid, she/he's smarter than I thought. It's important to recognize that children are more capable than they get credit for, but they are not small adults. That, taken literally, is incorrect (and I don't think you mean it literally since you recognize they need guidance/parenting).

You're right about what they teach. I've learned more about myself from my daughter than I have in the 35 years before my daughter. That's been one of the gifts of having a child – they are more valuable than any self help book on the market ;)

Regarding "Moving Away From Punishments", I'm not convinced this is a one size fits all way of parenting. One of the things my parents did right was balance reward and punishment in a manner that I believe built my ability to recognize and learn from mistakes, and build character upon failure and success.

There's a difference between "My house my rules" and "structure". I feel like your argument for removing punishments altogether is fixed, first because it's compared to the other extreme ("My house my rules"). And second because the example is throwing a toy, which honestly isn't a great example of an action that tests the boundaries of discipline scenarios. There's a middle ground where you respect your child and build structure that can include techniques of discipline appropriate for your child, without having to control them.

So how about an example that really pushes the boundaries – like kicking another child in the groin (anger) or mishandling a pet by dropping, squeezing or closing it in a box (lack of understanding or knowledge of consequences)?

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